Disclaimer: Note that some of the links below are affiliate links (meaning I get a small percentage of the sale without extra cost to you or the publisher).
Also, I'd like to give a big shout out to waysoftheearth over at the odd74 forum
for his insights. My original goal was simply to reproduce his
calculations and to be able to compare variations myself — like I do so below.
I have recently talked about some aspects of the man-to-man combat tables in Chainmail (and even shared my calculations so that you can play around with your own variants). It occurred to me that there's a weapon vs. armour table in the AD&D Players Handbook as well (which has been shown to be wildly different from that in Chainmail) — wouldn't it be fun to compare the two?
Here is the weapon vs. AC table in AD&D. As a reminder, these are modifiers added to the to-hit roll with a d20. Armour Class (leaving Dexterity aside) is determined as follows:For a level 1 fighting-man, the minimum required to hit these AC values is (20 minus AC). so 10+ on d20 hits an unarmoured foe, and 18+ hits someone in plate and shield.
To compare these values to those in Chainmail, we need to cut some of it. The Chainmail tables only include thirteen different weapons, and the armour categories are also different (for instance, chain, banded, studded, and splint mail all belong to the same category). To make things easier, we will only consider the following armour categories: no armour (AC 10), shield only (AC 9), leather (AC 8), leather & shield (AC 7), chain (AC 5), chain& shield (AC 4), plate (AC 3), and plate & shield (AC 2) — leaving out AC 6 for now.
Most weapons in Chainmail have a clear equivalent in AD&D, but note the following:
- for mace and flail we'll use the footman's mace and flail
- sword is interpreted as longsword
- polearms, a single entry in the Chainmail table, are left out because AD&D has different stats for each variant
- lance is similarly left out for now to make things simpler
Edit: I made a crucial mistake in my calculations, essentially flipping the modifiers in AD&D. I'd like to thank everyone who pointed this out! My conclusions are also rewritten to reflect this. Apologies for the errors in the first place.
In AD&D the average difference in performance is minimalised; blunt weapons are generally much worse against heavy armour than in Chainmail (cf. mace 20% vs 41.67% or 25% vs 58.33%); and the two-handed sword doesn't vastly outperform all other weapons.
Now, what if we make a direct conversion from Chainmail instead? If we take the percentile values and convert them to target numbers on the d20 scale, we get the following:
Of course, lance and polearms are still too ambiguous in AD&D terms, but it's definitely a starting point. Now, for the last bit, here are the to-hit modifiers for the above, presented in the AD&D format (AC 6 left blank and up for interpretation):
Hi Ynas: not sure if you've seen Delta's big post revealing the gaping mistake in the ADD W+A table as an attempt to convert the Chainmail MtM table, but it is a must-read on this topic:
ReplyDeletehttps://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2021/03/the-big-mistake-in-weapon-vs-armor.html
There's a link to it in the first (non-italics) paragraph ;)
DeleteI don’t know how you ended concluding that a two-handed sword is a worse option against heavy armour than a dagger, in AD&D, looking at the weapon versus AC, let us take Plate+shield as an example, a two-handed sword gets a plus 2 bonus to the attack roll and a dagger gets a hefty minus…
ReplyDeleteIn the original post (which I have amended), I accidentally flipped the modifiers :S
DeleteI thought it was strange, but because my main goal was to get the to-hit adjustments match up with Chainmail, I just didn't double check my maths.
No problem.
DeleteSo here's the thing with the comparisons to chainmail: there's an unspoken premise that there was some intention to maintain a rough parity to chainmail so ipso facto a lack of parity must mean some error in design.
ReplyDeleteBut maintaining parity with what came before it in regards to classes (and by extension how those classes use weapons in combat) was explicitly *not* the goal. Gary wrote design columns in dragon in advance of AD&D being published where he said that he was rebalancing all of this. And surprise, it is not a parity/continuation of the chainmail dynamic.
I really don't see why this is an expectation.
Oh, I didn't mean to imply such a thing. In fact, the suggested to-hit tables that match up with Chainmail's probabilities were meant to be just as usable with AD&D as any of the retro-clones. Not because Chainmail is "better" than AD&D (in fact, I'm not entirely satisfied with either), but out of sheer curiosity — and because at the moment I happen to be experimenting with incorporating various aspects of Chainmail into Kazamaták és Kompániák.
DeleteFair enough, since it referenced Delta's post, I conflated that the two had similar unspoken premises.
Delete